From Robert,
I recently hired a fencing company to put in a 6′ dog-eared cedar fence. I already have black streaks going down, from where the screws were set. I took one of the screws out and it appears it is a 11/2″ drywall screw. Is this acceptable? Is it common to use drywall screws for cedar fencing? Do I need to replace them with something else?
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Robert,
If you hired a legit fencing contractor, than he should know better, than using interior drywall screws for cedar fencing. (As a side note, many, many moons ago, before I knew better, a lumber yard recommended drywall screws to me as a “General” fastener for cedar fencing!)
Nowadays we know better. The Western Red Cedar Association, recommends Aluminum or Stainless Steel and a few others. Check them out! (I have sent you the link as cannot post it on comment section).
Posted by Vinman | May 14, 2011, 11:51 PMRobert,
As for some recourse.
If as you say, you have hired a legitimate fencing company, I would contact them immediately, and have someone from the company come out and inspect your fencing. If you had a contract with them or a warranty, you may get some recourse that way.
If on the other hand, you hired a small contractor or sub-contractor, you can try the same resolution. If the company fails to redress your concerns, there are several alternatives. If you have not paid the bill in full, hold the remaining payment and send a certified letter to the company stating your reasons. In other cases you can file a small claims judgment. Just be aware, if the court rules in your favor,your the guy who has to try and collect. The court won’t do it for you.
Hopefully I have given you some useful information and direction you can use. Please let me know how you are doing, and ask again, if you need further information.
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:32 PMRobert…Here is the WRC Assoc. info on fasteners:
FASTENERS
Hot-dipped galvanized, aluminum and stainless steel fasteners are all corrosion-resistant and can be used to fasten Western Red Cedar. Other types of nails are not recommended. They can rust and disintegrate and react adversely with the natural preservative oils present in cedar resulting in unsightly stains and streaks. Copper nails also react with cedar and should not be used.
Posted by Vinman | May 15, 2011, 12:12 AMFrom Robert,
Thank you … very much! I appreciate your help.
I did hire a licensed, bonded contractor so I hope I’m able to resolve this without a lot of trouble. I had told him that I wasn’t as concerned about the cost of the job as I was about the quality and the appearance … so it’s surprising to find out he cut corners like that. He may have done so but didn’t cut my cost … and will be pocketing the extra money.
Again … thank you for the response and for getting back to me so quickly.
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:34 PMFrom Vinman,
If the guy was licensed and bonded, then you have an excellent chance of some recourse. Legit contractors, work hard to get licensed, keep their bonds and word of mouth work. I would contact him immediately about the problems.
I would first contact the guy by phone and try to make an appointment to inspect the work. (Keep good records of the date and time you called,who you contacted, the conversation and a date to inspect to review the problems).
Most of the time, that does the trick, but if not, you have a record of your first attempt. (Recording dates,times and other things,helps you if you have to go to court).
If he fails to make the first appointment, or fix the problem within a reasonable time-(One to two weeks is reasonable), then followup with a registered letter. The thing is here, that most honest guys will make things right the first time around. If they put you off, or swear or get mad, then it’s time to get serious.(A person has to sign for a registered letter, so putting things down in writing is helpful in courts. A registered letter, also informs the other party that you are serious). In our business, that usually means the customer is not fooling around and is considering court action).
Other things are available if you have trouble. You can contact the contractors board in your city and file a complaint. They take these things very serious. You can also file a complaint with the BBB. This won’t help you, but warns other people about shoddy workmanship.
It’s been years since I have been in business, but if I recall correctly, the contractors bond, may protect you from shoddy work. (I think my initial bond in 1990 was $5,000.00). I would contact your local building department/contractors license board and ask for details.If you have a copy of your contract, it should have the contractors company name and contractors license number.
Good luck and let me know how it goes.
Vinman
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:37 PMFrom Robert,
So … the contractor was working on the chain-link portion of the fence (another area of the yard) when I returned home today. I told him I saw he used drywall screws and pointed out the major black stains on the fence that was put in earlier. He says he’s never had any trouble with drywall screws and I explained that I know they aren’t intended for outdoor work and explained that I didn’t want the new fence looking like the rest that was finished a while back. He’s not happy. I also told him I didn’t think the drywall screws would last long as I felt they would rust and break down quickly and worried about them holding with the very high winds we have here … and I repeatedly told him I wasn’t happy with the black stains. He said that staining the wood keeps that from becoming a problem.
I finally told him that today I called the other companies that I got estimates from and that they all use stainless steel … and I told him I got information from a “pro” (you) who verified that drywall screws should not be used. He still did not agree with that.
He said he could get the coated screws and I told him I had just been to Home Depot and looked at those, too … and the box suggest that you not use them with cedar … but rather suggests stainless steel. What is it about the coated screws that would make them not good for cedar? Don’t they actually make them colored for cedar?
I suspect things will not go well with the next conversation as I’m going to insist that all the drywall screws be removed and replaced.
-Robert-
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:40 PMHe probably is right, that he has never had any problems, as the fence looks great when he is finished. Even when I started out with fencing many moons ago, a lumber yard I used recommended the drywall screws as a general fastener for fencing!
The problem arises when acid in the cedar reacts with the material in the screw or nail. Like I said before, you can get the same reaction with some nails. (For instance electro-galv nails (A lower quality galvanized nail), will have the same effect. Hot dipped or double dipped galvanized nails are preferred, but stainless steel is now highly recommended, but the cost is pretty expensive).
FYI, in my area cost is a huge factor. Many fencing contractors around here, use galvanized gun nails or galvanized staples. I don’t know staple ratings, but they are very popular here. Even the extra galvanized coating will stain somewhat over time.
Today, we know a lot more about fasteners. Standard recommendations for cedar, whether it be fencing or decking is to use aluminum or stainless steel screws or nails. Like I said before, the cost is prohibitive with these, but they are highly recommended, especially in areas of lots of moisture or near salt water.
If one stained the fencing including the screw, it should prevent staining for a while, but eventually the tannic acid in the cedar, will react with the untreated screw and cause it to rust.
As for coated screws, I have no idea. I have never used them. Here is a link to the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association Website. You could copy the paragraph on fasteners and show it to him.
As I have never used the coated fasteners, I did a bit of research. I noted that a lot of fencing contractors around the country are suggesting their use. I also looked at at some Polymer coated fasteners. Seems the polymer may have some extra protection over a regular zinc coating. Here is a link to Grip-Rite Brand. I have used their standard fasteners, but they have a lot of info on the polymer coated types. As you suggest, if the package does not recommend use on cedar, I would not use them. I have also seen polymer coated nails in cedar color, mostly for composite decking. Here is another recommendation from a lumber company on the GripRites. Here is some info on GRK Fasteners
Vinman
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:41 PMThanks! I took out all the screws this weekend (what a job) and replaced them with the DeckMate ones. The other brand, I guess, is the one that said not to use with cedar but the DeckMate ones say they are specifically made for use with cedar and are guaranteed. What I realized real quickly is that the screws they set in deep ripped the wood as they came out … pulled at it and cracked. The fence company guys were supposed to be here this past Thursday but didn’t show and now say they’ll be here tomorrow to finish on the rest of the fence. I considering demanding some of my money back … but will wait ’till after they finish.
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:42 PMRobert,
Good news bud! But…I would have waited for the fence guys to replace all the screws, as it was their responsibility in the first place. You may not be able to get paid for your time and trouble, now, as they can excuse their responsibly by saying you failed to wait a reasonable amount of time, for them to fix the problem. Still, I would at least submit the receipt for the screws you purchased and they should reimburse you for the cost.
As you found out, whether it be a nail or a screw set deep, or countersunk into a piece of wood, they will always split the surface when removed.
And don’t be afraid, to demand what is right. You paid for something that should have been done right in the first place, and they failed. Like I stated before, you have some recourse, so if not satisfied, and you want to fight them do so. If you don’t, they will just go and do the same thing, to some other unsuspecting soul.
The two things I mentioned previously- filing a complaint with the State Contractors Licensing Board and the BBB-Better business Bureau, will give others a chance to do some research on the same contractor, if they fail to meet your expectations.
Hopefully, all this will be worked out, and your fence will be something that enhances your home vs something that devalues it.
Vinman
Posted by Vinman | May 17, 2011, 8:43 PM